Curse

Sir Kilgore · Oct 31, 2006, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sid Soggybottom

So...you're saying that before this change, people werent using the same builds, same strategies? Where have you been?

I'm guessing you really aren't reading the posts or you are just in a mood to argue.

Sid Soggybottom · Oct 31, 2006, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Kilgore

I'm guessing you really aren't reading the posts or you are just in a mood to argue.

Why do you think that? Just because I disagree with your opinions? Let's not resort to being petty okay? I mean I HAVE been trying to give you solutions and tips and suddenly I'm only here to argue?

Sir Kilgore · Oct 31, 2006, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sid Soggybottom

So...you're saying that before this change, people werent using the same builds, same strategies? Where have you been?

This is the reason I don't think you've been reading the posts or are in a mood to argue. I never said anything remotely like that or suggested anything like it.

What I said is you have fewer choices now because you must take something to compensate for the running away -- every battle.

I'll make this really simple for you.

I don't like the way the AI works now. You can tell me all your wonderful ideas about how to deal with it and it doesn't matter in the slightest bit. For me it makes the game more tedious and therefore less fun.

You can try to convince me liver is good if you prepare it right too, but that still won't change what my experience with liver is.

I know how to deal with the running away. There's nothing difficult about that. There's also very little thinking or strategy involved. It just isn't as much fun to play a game where a big part of the game is to kill groups of things that will attack you when you get close, but try to run away if confronted -- even if by a single player of lower level.

IMHO the change in AI was largely to curtail solo farming and had little to nothing to do with trying to improve the simulated intelligence of the creatures we face. If they were honestly trying to make the AI better and weren't concerned at all about the farming, they did a piss-poor job with the AI in general and a decent job making farming more difficult by accident.

I don't farm much so that part doesn't bother me, but I don't want to be forced to take a way to slow down enemies for every single fight. It should be like other situations where some enemies hex a lot so you bring hex removers or some knock you down so you bring balanced stance or dolyak's. That would be fine. Variety is the spice of life. Making it so at least one critter in nearly every group will take off on a cross-country run when attacked unless you bring something to slow them down is a different story.

The bottom line is IMHO the "improved" AI sucks -- not because of difficulty, but because it's less intelligent than the previous version and it adds nothing positive to the game.

That's my opinion and you are welcome to yours.

Terra Xin · Oct 31, 2006, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Kilgore

Strategy is adjusting to DIFFERENT situations. This one will force the same beginning to almost every battle. That's tedious, not strategic.

Not every single monster in Elona will run away from you at first sight. And not every profession is a Warrior/Assassin/Dervish.... the only 3 classes who would have trouble chasing their targets...

You're absolutely correct, strategy IS adjusting to different circumstances. These new circumstances require you to hunt your opponent down long enough to kill it, then its over and you move on.

Denying monsters the ability to run and you're limiting strategy. Let's see Hack and slash, monster dies? ooo, lots of strategy there...

Quote:

And then one of the enemies casts cure condition on your little snare and he's off to the races again while you wait for a recharge.

Let me make a very obvious correction. Enemy MONKS cast cure condition. The chance that an enemy monk will use a condition cure on themselves is small, when that enemy monk has like 3 other conditions to worry about that's coming from an assassin or dervish or warrior. And not every mob has a monk, i think we're safe from monks for now.

Quote:

What I said is you have fewer choices now because you must take something to compensate for the running away -- every battle.

Its annoying that warriors dont bring a res, or a bunny thumper doesnt bring healing. A party has 64 skills, and you can spare a single? So what if the snare gets removed, the target is dead by then.

Sir Kilgore · Oct 31, 2006, 03:19 AM // 03:19

OK, I'll make this one my last post.

This topic is NOT about whether or not we can deal with the running away or other aspects of the new AI. The topic is whether or not the FUN HAS BEEN NERFED.

For me the fun has definitely been nerfed. I'll still play, though probably not as much as before. I can handle the running away - it's not like you need a rocket surgeon (yes, that was on purpose) to figure that one out.

It bugs me that they changed the entire AI system to cut down on farming, which they made necessary due to the price structure in the game. It also bugs me because in my experience the new AI is less intelligent overall than the previous version.

If you enjoy the new changes, then more power to you. I have not enjoyed them to this point and it's highly unlikely that any amount of trying to explain to me why I should suddenly find this new level of tedium more enjoyable will convince me that it is.

Malice Black · Oct 31, 2006, 03:23 AM // 03:23

For me if something does not have a degree of difficulty then it isn't fun.

ShaneOfMach · Oct 31, 2006, 03:35 AM // 03:35

From my experiences, only enemy monks run when you attack them.

I believe Anet added this feature so that:

1.) Water elementalists and Mesmers will have a higher purpose
2.) Knockdown skills can be incorperated into PvE, instead of only PvP
3.) Crippling will actually be useful
4.) The level of diffuclty will be closer to PvP, rather than just barraging an enemy with attacks while he sits there, doing nothing.

jacobsod · Oct 31, 2006, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Just my 2 cents, but I don't understand why some people can't understand some of us play this game differently. I care for PvE over PvP, but a lot of the fun for me has now been ruined. Some of us actually prefer to solo for the most part, but group from time-to-time. Running after monsters is one thing, but running across the whole map is ridiculous.

I had just recently gotten back into GW after about 6 months or so of playing primarily WoW. I realized how much I missed GW. But then this AI update came and ruined it for me. Glad I didn't buy NF yet like I was planning on.

Again, just my opinion. I respect the fact some of you like PvP and love the changes, just some of us don't feel the same way.

xXa1 · Oct 31, 2006, 04:58 AM // 04:58

for most of us who enjoyed the pve of GW the fun has been nerfed.

to those who keep saying learn to adjust, we have, we're not paying for new chapters anymore and moving on. it really is very easy to adjust. i don't see the point of paying for something i don't like. i am, afterall, the customer. if anet wants to enforce changes that us customers don't necessarily enjoy doing, then we will adjust and leave what was otherwise a wonderful game until then.

and to those who say that anet knows best, sure. try telling that to coca-cola after their new coke debacle.

Adornay · Oct 31, 2006, 05:01 AM // 05:01

Well i dont mind the changes, I never was a farmer.
I too like running around slaying by the dozens, but i'll never chase a runner across the whole map thats just daft.
I'll let the muppets do the running whilst i find the next group to kill, and if i come across him later then i'll kill him then, if i dont see him again then i dont really care, cos no doubt there will be another coward on my next quest.
My message to you would be, FUN and the notion of ENJOYMENT AND SATISFACTION is all in the head of the person who is thinking it.
I'll just play the game the same way i always have and let anet throw what they want at it.
Because its still a FUN game in my mind, and i aint wasting my money by not playing it cos of some update.

Narutoscryed · Oct 31, 2006, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Admins Bane

For me if something does not have a degree of difficulty then it isn't fun.

difficult is in the eye of the beholder..

you say pvp is difficult.. i say 3 man urgoz
is difficult..

you say that builds in pvp are very skillbased.. i say that builds in pve are skillbased..

Now with that said if anet was to make it so that in pvp.. due to the fact that they never get favor.. japan gets a 2 man boost to their teams in halls

(we do preach ballance after all)

.. so they can have 8 against your 6.. that is difficult right? thus you have your fun right?

most of you would be here complaining about it.. and most the pve comunity would say adapt and overcome.. just like you are saying to us...

so as long as you understand that you can be on the flipside of the cointoss.. then i guess we can all rest in peace. because i know that if you people were in our shoes.. you would be very understanding of the situation..

Bone Jangle · Oct 31, 2006, 08:46 AM // 08:46

So far, I've been enjoying the game immensely. I'd disagree with the sentiment that it's no longer fun. I'm primarily pve, I don't pack any slowdown skills, and I mostly hench things. I haven't had any problems with it yet. Sure, sometimes a monk or something will run away a little, but I haven't had anything worse than a couple seconds of kiting. And frankly, it makes sense to me to have enemy monks kite a bit, even if it is pretty unintelligently.

It should probably also be said that I play a caster class, so that may affect how I look at the AI changes. I'm sure it's different for a melee class.

Xpl0iter · Oct 31, 2006, 04:16 PM // 16:16

already working on a 2 man build to do uw ^_^
I miss my spot, but i have quite a few skills to chose from. Any thing works as long as i kill them fast!
Now the question is.. how to KILL them FAST. Well, whos up for the challenge to work with us to make a build and redo farming rather than wasting ur time over here to debate whether the previous update was good or bad?

Msg me if u intend to work on this project.

An Elementalist.

MDeshame · Oct 31, 2006, 05:48 PM // 17:48

I want my GD "I Win" skill.
1 Energy, 1/4 cast 0 recharge. Clicking skill allows you to have everything handed to you on a silver platter.

Adapt.

gabrial heart · Oct 31, 2006, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Meh i don't have a problem with the new AI, it's trained on high AL rather then low now, which is fine with me. It's almost as though the gear trick works again, except it's everywhere. Also, ss is nerfed and prolly should have been from the get go, they all scatter with ss and again thats still just fine with me. Oddly enough the ele AoE skills they seem alot less affected now the before and now MM's have an even higher purpose, when the mob scatters, they dont run toward the casters, due to a minion wall.

Basically I've only ever had to chase down a few monks, most of the other mob members still stand there and take it.

Aera Lure · Oct 31, 2006, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Some people are missiing the point. Its simply is your gaming experience compromised by nerfs in so far as it less fun for you than before? Many replies are along the lines of adapt, learn to make changes to builds etc. Well sure, that's readily enough done. We have been doing that all along and one possible solution is to now bring snares etc or always play with a group of people among whom someone has them. There are other solutions, but its not really the point.

Is the game less fun for me with the continual nerfing, this latest in particular? Yes. Why? Its challenging to answer but basically its like swimming upstream and not gaining ground. With each nerf the speed with which one can progress in terms of earning funds, fighting through an area, farm if that is to one's taste, find good drops, running - basically all of the things we do when not playing the storyline for the sake of doing that - decreases. This is disheartening in so far as it makes it feel like progress of a character (since you cant progress in level you measure efficiency of play) is always a waste of time. Now I know this is not the case, and one can measure progress and fun by always having the game getting more challenging and things getting more difficult, but I personally do not define that as fun. Interesting, yes. Challenging, yes. Do I always want to play when its like that? No not really.

Nerfs like these always make me reconsider what I am doing playing the PvE side of this franchise. I have always bounced back and dove back in and figured out a new way to increase my fun and make play more efficient, but it grows ever more tiring. I am sure the PvP side of the game (aside from the camera recenter on target ally during a cast, and movement sensitivity - which I think is broken imho) has benefitted from the majority of the skill balancin. I just cant bring myself to agree with the other aspects of the 10/25 update. Considerably less fun imho. Doesnt mean it all in the end failed to improve full human team play - it probably did - but it certainly compromised many aspects of PvE play that are not centered on that. Quite unfortunate.

Jas D · Oct 31, 2006, 06:51 PM // 18:51

"Fun" is whatever you make of it. You chose how to play the game. You play it however you think is "fun". If the game doesn't appeal to you, move on.

Simple as that.

Sid Soggybottom · Oct 31, 2006, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera Lure

Some people are missiing the point. Its simply is your gaming experience compromised by nerfs in so far as it less fun for you than before? Many replies are along the lines of adapt, learn to make changes to builds etc. Well sure, that's readily enough done. We have been doing that all along and one possible solution is to now bring snares etc or always play with a group of people among whom someone has them. There are other solutions, but its not really the point.

Stagnation is the worst killer of any activity. Especially in an online persistant world, the game has to change constantly. If things stay the same all the time, then there's no point in logging in because there will be no experiences to have.

I'm sure you agree with that and I know you think that things are too hard and frustrating. There's really no way to say anything to change your opinion about fun though. Either you think it's fun or not. There's no way to please everyone. And I'm sorry to say, this will weed out the players that can't or refuse adapt because they just dont think it's fun.

I think this is a case of where people simply dont like change. I'm sure ANET will take the risk of alienating people who cant handle change rather then let the game stagnate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jas D

"Fun" is whatever you make of it. You chose how to play the game. You play it however you think is "fun". If the game doesn't appeal to you, move on.

Simple as that.

Damn that's what I wanted to say but you said in a much more concise way.

Prospero · Oct 31, 2006, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Fun is subjective. How can you say ANet nerfed fun? You can't. And besides, who cares if they did? I just don't understand why a change in gameplay mechanics can cause such an uproar. Looking back over all the updates (nerfs) to GW, this most recent one seems to be fairly minor.

I've been reading horror stories of chasing monks back to Pre-Searing, but have NEVER had this happen. Sure things run around and it's a bit more chaotic, but I never use snares in PvE and I don't intend on doing so. There is no need. A running monk isn't a healing monk, drop another target.

You are playing a game that is under the full control of ANet. You know full well that they can change the game to be whatever they want and there isn't much you can do about it. No one is asking you to play, and no one is promising fun from GW. ANet owes you an account and playtime, that's it. It doesn't promise non kiting enemies.

So, has ANet nerfed fun? Not for me. I don't mind discussion about such topics, but when has ANet ever reversed a big change? And you think this time will be different?

PyrAnkh · Oct 31, 2006, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Look at it from the bright side: you finally have a use for Bulls Charge, Bulls Strike, and Protectors Strike in PvE. Cheer!